I noticed after using my jot pro for an afternoon that it left scratches all over my iPad screen. Apple wants $250 to replace my screen - I don't think that I should be paying for this when Adonit's product that was supposedly compatible with my tablet caused the damage. I assume you guys have product liability insurance, how do I go about getting this problem rectified?????
I am NOT a happy camper at the moment. I don't see anywhere on the packaging that this was a potential risk of using the jot pro!!!!!
Comments latest first
Lawrence Lam
I bought this stylus from Machines (Mid Valley outlet) in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. I called the shop and they said I have to go back to the same outlet. I am currently writing this message outside Machines KLCC outlet. I am not a happy customer because of 3 reasons:
1) Poor quality control of Jot Pro. Pardon me but I cannot accept the reason that the scratches are caused by foreign particles trapped below the disc. There is a tiny dot on my disc and it is part of the disc (not foreign).
2) The Machines outlet told me I have to go to the same outlet (where I bought Jot Pro) for replacement. Since all their outlets carry the same name, why can't I go to any of their outlets?
3) I was told to leave the stylus at the shop for a few days before they can do the replacement.
VERY UNHAPPY. I can't go back to that same outlet as I am not from that city. The taxi fee will probably cost me more.
May 13, 2013 17:03
Lawrence Lam
I completely DISAGREE that the scratches are caused by tiny particles between the disc and the tablet’s surface. And don't tell me physics. I believe my eyes.
I just bought the Jot Pro in Malaysia two days ago. It scratched my screen protector badly.
There is a tiny protruded dot on the disc. I can hardly feel it with my finger but can see the dot with naked eyes. From my observation, this dot when moving on my screen protector, is as sharp as a knife. You don't need to apply much force to get scratches immediately. The dot appears about 1mm off the center of he disc.
Hi, I bought the Adonit Pro touch a week ago and I'm a little miffed about how it scratches the screen. I have read all of the above comments and the excuses and the hullabaloo, but I only read these comments after I spent the money to buy this stylus based on all of the good reviews all over the Internet. It works great with one HUGE caveat. It WILL scratch your screen. I bought my stylus at Staples and I have a feeling I will get no help from Adonit since I didn't by the thing online. Luckily I have been using a screen protector, though it makes the pen a little less responsive. Please look at these pics made with a screen protector. I have no idea if this is a defect of my specific pen, but it is quite horrible. I wiped my screen and the tip of the pen before every use and this is what my screen protector looks like after about 3 hours of using it. I would need a lot of money to buy a screen protector every time I wanted to use this thing to draw a few pictures on my Ipad.
April 12, 2013 01:44
larry
I do not see any other stylus in the market that is as precise and well to work as the adonit when it comes to drawing and painting. Adonit takes the cake. The problem I have is the adonit definitely scratches my screen protectors, and I even bought the scratch resistant, crystal clear, 1 per $17 screen ones and I still get scratches. I thoroughly clean my screen and my stylus disc, not just that but I have a spare disc and it is causing the same issues... Seems adonit will scratch my protectors no mater what. I suppose the only thing I can do is replace my protectors once every 3 months or so. Im sad, because I see drawing tablets use similar stylus' and their users dont seem to be complaining.
I would love to buy the pressure adonit stylus, but $99 for a tool that scratches the hell out of my protectors seems like I am just condoning this destruction and I cant do it.
September 26, 2012 00:15
Christopher Pardell
Worries about scratching the oleo phobic coating are unfounded.
I have been using the jot for some time and I am religious about keeping the tip clean and not getting abrasive dust on the screen. ( blow on it before wiping it clean). I use both a regular jot and the Touch, and I have not seen the slightest trace of scratching.
The oleophobic coating does Not prevent your greasy fingertip oil from getting on the surface of the glass. It simply makes it easier to clean with a dry microfiber cloth. ( otherwise you would need something like windex to get the oil off the glass )
Further... Your finger is actually rougher and more abrasive than the disc on the jot... Your finger even sheds cells which form a kind of abrasive grime in the oil... And use of the iPad by finger, or with silicone rubber stylii will actually wear off the oleophobic coating fast faster than the jot.
The single biggest cause of scratches is trying to vigorously wipe down a screen that has fine, very hard grit on its surface, or using a cloth that has grit in its fibers.
You are as likely to trap a piece of grit with your fingertip as you are with the jot.
Just clean the jot tip and the screen regularly after blowing off any dust.
August 19, 2012 04:37
Jeff Putney
I think it is pretty clear that the disk itself won't scratch the glass, but I suspect that it will 'scratch' the oleophobic layer on top of the glass (the fingerprint reduction coating). Throughout this discussion, I haven't seen it brought up, and I think it may be getting lumped in with scratching the glass.
After a bit of use, when I turned my ipad off, and the light hit it just right, you could read entire words perfectly. You couldn't feel any physical scratches, and you couldn't see anything wrong when the screen was turned on, but it was a bit disconcerting. Even if I hadn't been able to find an acceptable screen protector, I would have continued to use my jot because I consider it *way* more useful and valuable than the oleophobic layer.
August 19, 2012 03:03
Vasily Shmelev
Thanks God I've read it before start actually using this thing. Instead I've tried JotPro on my iPhone4 which has little scratches already. The result is impressive. Every, I should write it bold, every small speck of dust, even invisible, under the disk will definelty scratch your screen. And when there is absolutely no any dust on the disk and on the screen, it's true that the disk itself isn't scratch the iPad or iPhone glass.
So using the screen protector is a MUST if you're using Jot Pro. Just because you can not even see if there any dirt on the disk or not. Invisible hard dust will scratch and it will be better if it scratch protection film rather the expensive glass.
Sad but true, just for me 30$ pen is absolutely useless and probably will go to the wardobe box.
July 26, 2012 02:11
Elise Maloney
Cont... on someone about it? Seriously, that's like buying a brand new car, not getting insurance then yelling at the tree you wrapped it around that it owes you a new car. My fidiot brother scratched his screen with this same stylus and said... man, i should've used one of those clear sticker things, huh? Smdh
July 12, 2012 18:25
Elise Maloney
Seriously folks? first of all, you just spent hundreds of dollars on the latest technology, the primary function of which is the touchscreen... And you fidiots decide "meh I don't need to protect the primary function of this electronic investment". THEN you proceed to buy a precision stylus whose most notable feature is a non-fluffy tip, disregard the manufacturer's suggestion to use a screen protector and you feeleentitled to rag
July 12, 2012 18:21
Jon
Adonit
Thanks, I have appreciated your comments.
June 08, 2012 11:27
Dapcmaniac
Hi Jon.
Saw the post about the updated language and wanted to say that it looks much clearer that way.
As stated previously, I appreciate your taking the time to listen to our concerns on wording.
June 08, 2012 11:17
Michael
Never had an issue with my screen becoming scratched and I am NOT using a protector. Makes me wonder if Adonit is not the 'fall guy' here. My only issue is keeping the pen together. LOL!
June 07, 2012 19:17
Jon
Adonit
Please note the following advisory which has been placed on all our Jot product pages.
"However, as is generally known, when any object, such as a stylus or your finger, contacts and moves on an unprotected screen, scratches may happen due to the particles between the screen and the object. Therefore, a screen protector is recommended to be used to maintain the condition of the screen. If there is wear to the screen protector, it is recommended to replace it with a new one. In any case, it is advised to keep your screen clean of dust and particles. For further instructions regarding protecting your screen, please contact the manufacturer of your appliance for assistance."
June 06, 2012 11:50
Dapcmaniac
Will do Jon, Thanks
May 24, 2012 10:38
Jon
Adonit
Dapcmaniac, no need for photos we'll take your word for it. Please contact help@adonit.net. Thanks again Christopher.
May 24, 2012 10:08
Christopher Pardell
Happy to contribute, Jon.
Its true that most folks don't understand the materials involved... But X-men is just a comic, there really is no impervious matter- even Dianind can be scratched.
On another note... Your windows are mounted vertically... This alone prevents any sizable chunk of really hard material from 'falling' onto them... And, seriously, you really do very seldom touch them, as compared to your phone or tablet.
Here's how gorilla glass came about. Steve jobs had a prototype iPhone that had a case made out of the hardest, most durable plastic Apple engineers could source.
He pulled it out of his pocket at a meeting to show how just the coins in his pocket had scratched up the screen...
Production was halted as Apple furiously pursued a Glass faceplate, and re-engineered the iPhone for it.
For this same reason, most watches have a lens made of crystal... Which is even harder than glass... But look at folks' watches and you will see they still get scratched. Heck, most engagement rings will scratch anything they touch... (at least the ones with real diamonds and sapphires.)
Glass on phones and tablets is a relatively new thing. Every smartphone and hand held device prior to the iPhone was scratched up within days.
Glass fronts and ceramic backs are a huge improvement in durability and quality.... But it's still just glass.
And, fer cryin out loud, BLOW off the dust before you clean it, and clean it gently... The majority of all screen scratches occur while the user is cleaning the screen, rubbing the gritty dust around with a cloth.
May 24, 2012 01:21
Jon
Adonit
Yes there is a serious gap in customer epectations; Apple and Corning have created the image of unscratchable glass, which is a contradiction in terms, unrelated to reality. The fact is that you were best protected when you had a screen protector on your device. Your windows are very likey scratched, but the scratches aren't as obviously visible to you (and cleaning with water and a sponge helps them avoid scratching). No one expects you to know the science behind how your screen works or how it attracts dust particles through static electricity. All you need to know is that your device has a glass screen, that glass can be scratched, and that using a screen protector is the best way to maintain original screen condition. As I have stated previously, we are currently working on the wording on our site in order to provide customers with a stronger advisory. Chriitopher, thanks for your post..
May 23, 2012 21:23
Dapcmaniac
Interesting insights from the lawyer, Jon, and Chris.
I have to be honest, if Jon and Chris are in the right, we have a serious gap on consumer expectations. A major major glass. Somewhere in Chris' post about static electricity and plastic via other stuff and types of glass and etc, I definitely went cross-eyed
Its a bloody stylus. I can't tell you how little time i put into research (beyond what was on the product page) for a 30 dollar item when it was already reccomended to me. Again. Its fine this is an outcome of the product, but to for me to know the physics on static charge's and stylus materials and the effect that has on screen scratches (drastically raising their frequency) is an absurd assumption. I still cant figure out why this screen scratches, but my windows (on my apartment or car) never seem to scratch despite my constantly cleaning them, people getting their hands on them, constantly opening/closing, etc.
Again I am not a tech guy. Just a guy who was recommended a product. Maybe I dont fit your customer base?
I have not forgotten to talk directly to support in e-mail. Gotten a little lazy after so many bad picture attempts. Hoping to get to it for memorial day (if work will let me breathe for a moment!)
May 23, 2012 11:41
Christopher Pardell
Jon is right, the lawyer is wrong.
Physics is physics. The contact disc on the jot products is a polycarbonate or similar plastic... There is no way on earth for polycarbonate to have scratched the gorilla glass. none. It's not even theoretically a possibility. The plastic in no harder than your fingernail... Just try leaving a mark on glass with your fingernail.
While a host of materials are harder than polycarbonate, it takes something harder than glass to scratch glass. Diamond will do it. Carborundum will do it, and certain metal or ceramic particles. There's a pretty short list of potential culprits capable of scratching glass... That is the whole reason Apple went with glass on the iPhone and iPad... Jobs did not like the way literally EVERY OTHER transparent material scratched so easily.
Of the potential sources, ferrous metals might cling to the static charge that polycarbonate can hold... but the iPad's glass is equally capable of holding a static charge. and, btw, so is the silicone tip of any other stylus.
Ergo... The exact same particle or particles that somehow got between your stylus tip and screen would have potentially done similar damage had you caught those particles between your screen and any other brand of stylus. Or even your finger... Though you might have Felt the gritty bit with your finger.
About the only thing you can point to is the fact that the Jot's Hard plastic tip was less yielding than soft rubber tip, and may have made the scratching deeper. But then, the fact that hard clear plastic is not soft pliable rubber was not hidden from you... It was plainly evident.
Suggesting Adonit is somehow responsible for the grit that got on your stylus or pad would be exactly like making the claim that Goodrich Tires is responsible for the nail that punctured your tire.
While it might be a service for Adonit to advise potential buyers of the importance of keeping materials harder than glass off their iPads.... That adviso is more properly in Apple's purview... And I would guess that Apple's marketing materials at some point mention that, while glass is one of the hardest substances used in products... It is not impervious to materials harder than glass any more than it is to unbreakable.
You got some very hard grit on your iPad, or stylus tip. You didn't catch it. And you did not notice the change in how the stylus felt as it went from gliding, to grinding, across the glass...
Contrary to the lawyer's claim... A class action might get Adonit to pay the lawyer to save costs... Netting you some portion of a pittance.
But there is no way Adonit could lose this 'case' in court.
The perfect analogy is a tire on a car or motorcycle.
May 22, 2012 13:42
Jon
Adonit
Actually Scott I am not saying that. I don't know what the company would do in such a situation, since it has never happened before and the matter would be taken out of my hands.
May 21, 2012 13:53
Dapcmaniac
Back from my trip.
I tried taking some photos but its hard to get the screen to show the scratches without the pictures getting a glare. Anyone have any tips?
May 21, 2012 11:04
Scott
So if I am reading your response correctly, if an independent tester selected by a customer determines that it was the jot disc and not environmental debris that scratched a screen then adonit will pay for the screen replacement.
May 21, 2012 05:50
Jon
Adonit
Mike, let me address a few points.
* " It is important to note, Jon does make several valid points regarding product liability, but not once does he address the issue with evidence."
I have addressed the issue with evidence. I have posted photographic evidence in this thread. Additionally, we invite customers with scratch issues to have their disc and screen examined by a third party of their own choice, so that they can obtain evidence themselves.
* "Jon's argument is quite simple: At a molecular level, basic laws of science prove that we are surrounded with an inescapable cloud matter. Because the matter is so infinitesimally small, liability cannot be directly attributable to Jot."
No that is not my argument. My argument is that when scratches appear on both the screen and the surface of the disc, those scratches were clearly made not by the disc but by particles in between the disc and the screen.
* "Finally, Jon completely misstates the law, but an excellent use of misleading rhetoric tries to hide his ignorance."
Actually I have not stated nor made any reference to law.
* "Next, Jon argues that because the company has not received nor confirms any reports of disc protrusions causing the actual damage, then they don't exist."
I have never said that.
* "we use an independent test. This meaning an objective and neutral outsider did the tests. I’m sure this is true, but Jot select the items tested, not the independent tester. "
I did not say this. I pointed out that customers have had their discs and screens tested independently by a third party; we did not select the tester, we did not select the items tested, we did not select the results.
I have no objection to you posting your opinion, but I will ask you to quote me accurately.
Additionally, you appear to have represented Apple as claiming that their iPad screens are completely unscratchable. I do not believe Apple has ever made such a claim; on the contrary, I believe they are very careful about the claims made for their screen. I do not believe we have said anything which contradicts what Apple has said about its own screens.
May 20, 2012 03:06
Mike Butler
After experimenting with nearly every styli created and the tragic loss of my real stylus - iFarady, I thought the Jot Pro deserved another look. I will not do so after reading this thread. I'm appalled by representative Jon's (Jon) carefully worded responses. However, I have no stake the outcome, well, other than entertainment.
I’m a lawyer, and Jon is not only taking your money but also calling you an idiot for mistakenly attributing liability. Hopefully, someone will take my discussion further and seek counsel. This is a viable claim. It is important to note, Jon does make several valid points regarding product liability, but not once does he address the issue with evidence. You're not asking the right questions. Let me explain.
Procedurally, a couple of you should hire a lawyer with a history of successful class certifications (class action claims). Companies factor litigation cost into fiduciary obligation. Simple delays and placation will eliminate half of the claimants because it’s not worth the time and cost to litigate. While courts are reluctant to certify class suits, this might be the right one. First, the controversy raises an interesting legal question that will reoccur without resolution, so the Court will likely hear the case. Next, it set precedence for something that will replace computers, shortly.
The short version, because I don’t have a stake in the outcome, I’m an independent tester. Seek a products liability firm with a solid reputation for class action certification. The issue is valid (ripe), it’s individualized and concrete harm for which a remedy is available.
Jon's argument is quite simple: At a molecular level, basic laws of science prove that we are surrounded with an inescapable cloud matter. Because the matter is so infinitesimally small, liability cannot be directly attributable to Jot. Without certainty, how can a court justify damages? It requires solid reasoning.
Interestingly, the argument is sound and somewhat rock solid, to the layperson. Can anyone prove that Jot is 100% liable? Unlikely, contributory negligence weights heavily on redressability. Without a definitive remedy, a court will dismiss for lack of standing. Justiciability is too complex to discuss, but it is sufficient justification for a motion to dismiss on summary judgment.
The counter argument is too simple that I fear I'm missing something. However, I doubt it. An analogy might be illustrative: Mike is pointing a gun at Jon's head, but Jon told Mike that the gun was unloaded. Sally, drunk, staggers by and bumps Mike causing the gun to fire, and unbeknownst to either of them, Sally loaded the gun earlier. Jon dies from a head wound. Because the shot was a head shot, it exited Jon’s head and ricocheted off the tree, striking and mortally wounding the drunken Sally. Who is liable?
Tough decision ... the more variable added to the hypothetical the more elusive a "right" answer becomes. Below, I discuss how Jon uses ambiguous complexities to change the question in his favor with a strong variable: infinity.
After summary Judgment, the claimant will present the facts. Team Jon will attempt to refute each one of them with complexity. For example, if I say the sky is blue; he'll ask where, Seattle? Alternatively, he might use “junk science” to ask, “how can we know with certainty that the sky is blue? Because microscopic particulate matter refracts sunlight, the sky appears blue but this is not factually correct.” What do you think? Knowing this is true, is the sky blue?
After our claim is made, team Jon is likely to invoke the long standing principles of contract law. However, this will likely fail because of the inherent inequities in bargaining power, between a consumer and a behemoth company, Jot cannot be ignored. Often, this is called contract adhesion. Generally, adhesion contracts are standard form contracts and or warranties that are drafted by one party (usually a business with stronger bargaining power) and signed by the weaker party (usually a consumer in need of goods or services), who must adhere to the contract and therefore does not have the power to negotiate or modify the terms of the contract. This argument will prevail. For a contract to be valid, consideration (bargaining) must be possible.
Now the fun part, lets parse the language employed by Jon and determine what it is he's saying or not saying. This is why most of you are frustrated. He'll continue to do it until you give up. Do not do this. Hire someone like Jon that knows what Jon is doing. Hire a lawyer.
According to Jon, "it's possible to detect scratches on the … [Jot's] disc's surface ... [but] invisible to the unaided eye, [but] … microscopic particles [do] adhere to the soft underside of the disc's surface and scratch it."
The entirety of the issue turn on this statement. Admission of possibility in first clause is key, but Jon tries to qualify or limit the assertion with an unsupported assumption. Oops! However, since the company recommends a screen protector, as Jon professes, the consumer is perpetually at “risk of an inevitable scratch,” and therefore, Jon is not liable. Recall contract adhesion? It must be clearly stated and not a mere recommendation buried in the product's website. Moreover, note the use of inevitable: how long? If he’s referring to an unidentifiable time-frame, it’s considered forever. So yea, definitionally, he’s correct. Finally, Jon completely misstates the law, but an excellent use of misleading rhetoric tries to hide his ignorance. Note his lack of qualifying language, nothing he has written forces him into a position.
Next, Jon argues that because the company has not received nor confirms any reports of disc protrusions causing the actual damage, then they don't exist. This is art of argument 101. It's called cum hoc ergo propter hocmeaning that a correlation of occurrences is not sufficient evidence to establish causation. Refuting this is difficult because it never ends, 999 occurrences out of 1,000 proves nothing. Numerous variable not factored into the analysis might be attributable to the cause, if not partially contributory. Tough argument to make when a significant amount of factual evidence allow plausible inferences.
Jon's entire argument is summarized thusly: "it is not our product that is scratching screens; it is environmental debris." Love it. Think about what his saying. First he set up the pictures and planted the seed that they do acknowledge possible liability, allowing for sympathy. Before you know it, his statement flips the script to supports his "alternative causation" theory.
The introduction of microscopic environmental matter is significant because it is eludes qualification; it’s infinite. Infinity has no beginning nor end. Without those two components, logical reasoning cannot support inferential liability.
In law, we use the colloquial principle: "laugh test." If you cannot postulate an assertion without someone laughing, it shall never be used. A few examples of where Jon forgot this principle: "Like other stylus manufacturers, … our website advising that if customers are not going to use a screen protector on their device, they need to keep their screen clean."
Really? Seriously? He's using "other manufactures" to support his argument. Note the lack of support with “other” makers. Does he mean Most, some, none, or all? Knowing this changes everything. Exemplary use of ambiguity under the guise of evidence.
Another example where the laugh test should have been used, "any glass screen which is not using a screen protector is going to be scratched eventually, regardless of the kind of stylus used, or even if only a fingertip is used. That is the risk you choose to accept when you decide not to use a screen protector." I love this one. So Apple, the manufacturing company that supports a parasitic company like Jot, is wrong? Is Jon explicitly saying: forget what apple recommends, we know better. Of course, Jot has done "extensivetesting." Again, the phrase is not defined, thus it’s both ambiguous and infinite.
Finally, to prove that Jon is right, he offers you his own personal tragedy, "I experienced this myself with my own smartphone, which was scratched within four hours of purchase, despite the fact hat I had never used anything on it other than my fingertip." Is he trying to garner sympathy or prove an assertion without evidence? Both. Again, art of argument 101, identify with you adversary, illicit sympathy. Jon learned his lesson: always heed the conventional wisdom of others over a multibillion dollar company like Apple because clearly - Jot’s testing exceeds that of Apple’s testing. Yea, right. I’d love to read something about Apple asserting that a finger will eventually result in scratched glass. This is poorly written and very transparent. Look on the bright side, he's not calling you idiots, this time. He's showing that someone with extensive knowledge like himself makes mistakes.
While it's been fun, I'm losing interest after the paragraph above. For a minute, I thought Jon might be the company lawyers since most responses are well written, dismissive yet ambiguous. Fast forward to the end, if you’re sick of reading.
A few important quotes that need little explanation:
"we are able to have confidence in the knowledge that our stylus is not scratching screens, not only because of the extensive testing we have carried out, but also because of the independent tests which have been carried out on Jot discs which customers thought had scratched their screen. In every case it was clear, under magnification, that the plastic disc of the Jot was scratched."
According to Jon, you're wrong about the source of scratches because:
(1) extensive testing proves otherwise. Another ambiguous and unsupported assertion both definitional and substantively. What qualifies as extensive? These are vital questions that have meaning to the layperson, but legally, without context, they are meaningless. e.g. after 5,000 complaints Jot cherry pick 5 styli and test three of them. Problem? Yup, under plain meaning rule this qualifies as extensive testing. Of those selected for testing, they test more than half of the lot, and the results prove Jot was not the definitive cause. Are you buying this story? I hope not.
(2) we use an independent test. This meaning an objective and neutral outsider did the tests. I’m sure this is true, but Jot select the items tested, not the independent tester. Apply the above rule and shown your results.
Nothing Jon has written is direct evidence over the issue of whether Jot is liable or the magic dust is the cause. Until irrefutable evidence is provided, he’s working you until you get tired of it. Textbook. $250 is an odd number. It’s large but not too large that consumers are guaranteed to litigate, and small enough that at some point, your time becomes more valuable than the effort. Almost seems like a calculated risk, does it not?
Here a good example of recharacterizing the question ask many have asked:
"We never dismiss scratch claims by saying a screen 'will scratch eventually anyway'. What I have pointed out is that if you do not use a screen protector, then you have decided to accept the increased risk of your screen being scratched, and a screen without a protector is going to be scratched eventually, even if you never use any stylus on it at all."
Because he did not use qualifying language earlier, he’s right. However, the plain meaning rule says otherwise.
Here, Hamid is being overtly insulted
"Hamid, our Jot's plastic disc has been tested extensively, and we have sold tens of thousands of Jots. The fact that we still have only a tiny number of people contacting us about scratch claims, is further evidence that the Jot's plastic disc is not scratching the Gorilla Glass of people's screens."
Forget defining tiny, tell us what number would justify an inquiry? The exact number. 50%? 80%? No amount would make a company question the lifeblood of its existence - until the litigation floodgate forced the company to act.
By now, you should be able to anticipate Jon’s responses before he does. Try playing chess without prior experience, you lost before it began, he took your power,
Never ask questions that you don’t know, at least tangentially, what the potential answers might be. Force you opponent into a definitive position, then exploit it by using: ambiguity, infinity, and recharacterizing the issue in a manner favorable to your position. All champion chess players, know their next six moves, and your next six even though you don’t know what they are. Always anticipate and force your opponent into contrary positions. Applied here, ask short and pointed questions. Ask questions that require answers with qualifying words: how much, by whom, etc.
"I have made the point repeatedly that scratching is inevitable with any stylus, if a screen protector is not used. However, it is completely avoidable by using screen protector. Any screen will inevitably be scratched regardless of whether or not a stylus is used, if a screen protector is not used."
Notice that Jon’s repetition has obviated the need to prove the assertion? This is because omission is implicit acceptance. He built this argument before many of you had even scratched your iPad.
In closing, what ever you do. Don't give up. Don’t let Jon verbally annihilate you? Use what I’ve written as a guide, and do it politely. Identify the goal and focus on it. Name calling and rudeness will not get you closer to the goal, and quite possibly, it will become another obstacle. Jon does not care about you as a person, and anything you say will have little effect.
A one paragraph summary of the legal dispute: A paid B for C, but C damages D.
X is the cause of action - why you're in court. A is you; B is Adonit; D is your iPad.
X argues that B is liable for damages to D because but-for C no D would have occurred.
Remove Adonit, the equation fails. Establish but for causation for C (a proxy to B) You win.
B characterizes the question as: since A failed to heed B warning, B is not liable for A’s misuse of C. This is weak.
Alternatively, if the court finds C did cause D to A's property. B will argue that it is impossible to show that C is completely negligent for D to A.
That's it. At the very least, spread the word. Tell everyone. Public sentiment forces policy change. Jon responses to many of you are simply repugnant. I write someone else in the company because this affects sales, which have an impact on adonits existence. Don't be intimidated or bullied, Jon lacks real skills. If this is all they have to offer, this case is a winner every time, in every jurisdiction.
Good luck… I have screen shots, just in case this is removed. My post will be remove quicker than the time it took me to write. Hope it helps someone.
May 20, 2012 02:23
Jon
Adonit
You're welcome. I don't think we disagree on consumer expectations, what we have is a different idea of how soon scratching can happen without a screen protector. I am aware that it can happen at any time, either after a long time (if you're lucky), or almost immediately (if you're unlucky).
I managed to scratch the screen of one of my devices on the same day I bought it (though not with a stylus; I was using my fingers), and bought a screen protector as a result. I am not going to remove the screen protector, because it will expose my device to precisely the dangers I aimed to avoid by applying the protector in the first place.
I don't expect a screen to be scratched after a long time without a screen protector, I fully expect it to happen very promptly, if only on the basis of my own experience. I also expect scratching to be inevitable regardless of how clean someone tries to keep their unprotected screen.
We have been discussing a change to the wording on our site, and aim to have a stronger recommendation for screen protector use up soon.
May 15, 2012 17:14
Dapcmaniac
Thank you Jon.
I think we have a disagreement on consumer expectations on product usage. I expect scratches over the lifetime use of my product. I do not expect them to occur so quickly through the use of a specific product.
My irk is that this could have been avoided by saying: Warning, use of this product without a screen protector will result in noticeable scratches on the screen.
I would have been warned and kept mine on, the company would have satisfactorily stated a known concern on its product, everyone is happy.
I thank you for volunteering to look at the photos. I am traveling for a few days and will contact the help e-mail upon my return (can't load photos onto work computer). I'm not the best with a camera and my attempts to take a picture where one can clearly see the scratches have been a little troublesome.
My thanks again.
May 14, 2012 00:07
Jon
Adonit
By the way, as I have already mentioned, please contact us on help@adonit.net. We're entirely willing to review photos of the scratches on your screen and have you explain to us how they happened.
May 11, 2012 17:06
Jon
Adonit
I understand what you say, and I fully appreciate your position. Of course you want a device you can simply purchase and use, without having to concern yourself with technical details or chase information about risk minimization. I can completely agree with that point of view; it's entirely natural for anyone purchasing a consumer IT product.
We don't consider it an unrealistic expectation that people using a glass product will understand it will become scratched eventually if a screen protector is not used, even if a stylus is never used. We also consider it reasonable to expect people to realise that applying a screen protector reduces that risk, and going without a screen protector (or removing one), increases that risk.
However, we do understand that Corning's marketing of their Gorilla Glass can be misleadingly enthusiastic, and though we don't believe we are liable when their product fails to meet their customer's expectations, we are currently discussing a rewording of the text on our website so that it contains a stronger recommendation for improved care practices.
May 11, 2012 17:03
Dapcmaniac
Hello Jon
I appreciate your willingness to allow me to state my case.
Would it help if i submitted a picture trying to capture the scratches just being caught on the border as well as the name of the app that I use for notes (so you can see why its just that edge?). I have to be honest though I get the feeling the response will be along the lines of 'it could have been caused by another device/natural use/etc.'
I have read your comments here and frankly its frustrating.
I am not a tech savy person (outside of the 'ohh cool!' or 'shiny!' factor.) I wanted a stylus. i frankly still dont understand why those old styluses from PDAs wont work. I don't really know what 'gorilla glass' is outside of the fact my ipad has it and it sounds strong. I bought a cheap soft tip stylus because I didnt realize how hard it would be to write with. Amount of research? None. I just wanted a stylus and they sell for like 10 dollars.
I was told the Jot was a fantastic stylus. On a recommendation I checked it out and bought the product. I saw nothing on the amazon product page or this product page that stated scratching of the screen could occur with regular stylus use. Just a warning to keep your screen clean, which to me is something I'd do anyway (i hate smears/dust on my iphone).
Why was there an assumption that I would just know these things? I just wanted a stylus to write with. How much background research was I going to do on a 30 dollar purchase? Do I expect scratches on my screen after i took my protector off? Absolutely, but so many within a short time period of owning both the ipad and the stylus?
I felt mislead. I went from being really happy to being kinda peeved. Like I said, I had a screen protector but took it off because of the grainy look ruining the ipad experience. Had I been aware at the purchase of the product that I was risking scratches so quickly, I would have dealt with the grain.
Thank you for the time to read my concerns and respond to my post. I find the defense of your product to be quite admirable, and as i said, I did enjoy using the product.
I will see if I can get a clear picture taken with my cameraphone or something if that is helpful.
May 10, 2012 12:14
Jon
Adonit
"But it's STILL an impossible-to-completely-avoid problem with your product."
I have made the point repeatedly that scratching is inevitable with any stylus, if a screen protector is not used. However, it is completely avoidable by using screen protector. Any screen will inevitably be scratched regardless of whether or not a stylus is used, if a screen protector is not used.
The presence of grit or dirt between the stylus tip and the screen is not a design flaw; there is no way to prevent an object coming between the stylus tip and the screen.
"I don't remember a screen protector anywhere in all of my research on this product;"
Our website informs customers that if they choose not to use a screen protector they need to keep their screen clean. We also provide a list of screen protectors which work well with our product, as well as a list of protectors which don't work well.
I'm sorry you don't think we're being real about this issue, and that our responses are childish. On our forums I have answered directly all questions about the potential of scratching, with answers such as these:
* "Using any stylus can scratch your screen protector or screen, if dust or grit particles become trapped between the stylus tip and the screen. This is why stylus manufacturers recommend the use of screen protectors." (Jon Burke, March 22, 2012 08:46)
If you think that's a childish answer, or an answer which avoids the issue, please let me know how I can improve it. I will forward your concerns and suggestions to our marketing team.
May 10, 2012 00:44
J M
I am so frustrated from reading the responses to user complaints on this page -- Adonit / Jon, you are completely missing the point. Everyone understands that it's a piece of dirt between the disc and the screen! We get that! Yeah, it's not your plastic disc itself. But it's STILL an impossible-to-completely-avoid problem with your product. You may not be able to pay for our iPad screens, but what you can do, is admit that this is still a design flaw, say that you're working on it, and in the meantime, heavily advise your buyers to use a screen protector. I understand the issues of admitting fault for liability reasons, but look at how much Apple has gotten away with regardless of its many lawsuits. It's so not a big deal to have to use a screen protector if you can find the right one. I don't remember a screen protector anywhere in all of my research on this product; I even remember someone saying it didn't work well with a protector on a review (I found different results: it worked fine!).
But, what is appalling here is the ridiculous refusal to get real. Two of my friends have already said that they really like the Jot Pro they have borrowed from me to test: I don't tell them not to buy it because I know now revile the thought of it thanks to the scratches and this forum, but I tell them if they like it to simply get a screen protector. They have absolutely no qualms about that.
Sure, I'm pissed that my screen is scratched, but do I really expect you to pay for it or to replace it? No. Just warn your future customers and warn them well. People are out there thinking that Gorilla glass is indestructible thanks to some irresponsible articles/blog posts. It behooves your marketing and your risk management team to (1) tell them how wonderful your product is for all the reasons you love it, and then (2) tell them it comes with a small caveat that perhaps all users should respect, anyway. Perhaps sell it in a package with a screen protector, recommend one that works well with it, or even work with another company to give a coupon deal or something.
The responses here to those of us who are wanting some kind of apology or acknowledgement is just really childish. Makes me wonder if the Levi post was planted: I don't think I see any other happy camper on this page who feels resolved.
May 09, 2012 23:39
Jon
Adonit
If you have any evidence that your device's glass screen was scratched by the Jot's plastic disc, we're completely willing to have you make your case to us. Please contact help@adonit.net.
May 09, 2012 20:01
Dapcmaniac
I feel a strong need to post my review from Amazon here (2 stars). It should give a good telling of the problem I experienced and I am hoping for resolution.
"I liked this stylus. I really did.
Initially I had a screen protector on my iPad, ready to go from the day I purchased it. I had to take it off because the protector was making the screen look very grainy and hard to read with (also negating the benefit of having a 'retina' screen).
About a week after, I noticed marks on it that strongly resembled words, specifically along the right border (an app I use reserves that area for magnified writing)
The marks ended up being scratches. I went to the Adonit site and looked on their forum, but it appears they are saying it's not their product, but a result of static and particles. To be honest it really still is their product doing the writing and forcing the marks. I didn't have scratches on my backup stylus that I leave in my travel bag (softer tip) for when I need to draw something out using the center screen real estate which remains scratch free, making me think it's the hard plastic on the Adonit stylus causing the issue (thus it IS their product).
The description did say to keep your screen clean from particles and dust, but I thought that was so the writing would be more seamless (I figured they meant a lot of particles on screen will collect on the disk and then stop the iPad from registering contact), NOT that it would actually damage my property. I do follow that advice as much as I can but it is not possible to always be 100% dust free.
Had I been warned that no screen protector would have meant scratches, I certainly would have thought twice about removing the protector and make my eyes deal with the grainy retina look.
In all fairness I have to contact Adonit directly to seek resolution, but right now I am quite unhappy. I take really good care of most of my electronics. Yet now my father who has a year old iPad has a mostly blemish free screen, while my iPad, which is just about a month old, looks like I've had it for years (at least along the right border).
It's sad because until I noticed that, I wanted to give this product 5 stars because it's the best writing stylus I have encountered. But what is the point if when it is working normally, a direct side effect is screen damage?"
As per my review, this is my reaching out for a fix...
May 09, 2012 03:45
Jon
Adonit
We both agree it is not the disc scratching the screen, particles between the tip and the screen are responsible; I have explained this several times on this forum, so I'm not sure why you think I'm disagreeing with you. What you say about a cushioning effect is true of soft sponge rubber tips, but not hard rubber tips. But grit adheres to both of them far more easily than to a plastic disc, and the manufacturers of such styluses place warnings about dirt on their websites precisely because of the danger of scratching.
Plastic screen protectors are much softer than Corning's Gorilla Glass. This is verifiable. First you can check their relative hardness indexes; Gorilla Glass scores 9 on the Mohr hardness scale, steel is between 4 and 5, and a screen protector scores much lower again. Secondly, you can try running a razor blade over a Gorilla Glass screen and a screen protector, and see which one scratches. A screen protector can be scratched with a fingernail, glass cannot.
May 06, 2012 18:00
Marble Shark
Apologies, forgot to add - for the comment about screen protectors being softer and more likely to scratch, that's completely wrong - they'll just scratch slightly worse than glass. Regardless, a scratch is a scratch.. up the the consumer at the end of the day what is or isn't acceptable - I'd recommend sticking with rubber-tipped styluses until Adonit address this serious problem.
May 06, 2012 16:45
Marble Shark
Appreciate you are trying to defend your product, however having owned 4 high-end capacitive styluses, I can say with 100% certainty the Adonit is *much* more likely to scratch the screen than any of the others. The reasons are obvious, the very soft rubber tip of a capacitive stylus provides a pillow for any debris that might get in between the screen and stylus, making it far less likely to scratch (or if it did, the scratch a lot less serious) - the jot products have a solid disc, this is asking for trouble which is why until now other manufacturers have steered clear of such an exectution. Posting all the pictures in the world of the stylus tip on this page makes no difference, it is not the 'disc'' scratching the screen that is in question. It is of some surprise this requires explaining to someone who works for a Stylus company but I'm sure others will most certainly agree, it is not my word against yours, it's elementary physics. I had to sell my Jot, it's useless until this problem is solved and I'd urge others to avoid it until the design flaw is addressed. Again, just my 2 cents - if others want to give it a go and risk constant screen / protector replacement costs that's their privaledge!
May 06, 2012 16:43
Jon
Adonit
Every capacitive touch stylus faces exactly the same issue with debris, which is why you will see the same advice as we give, on the websites of other stylus companies. The rubber tipped styli are particularly bad at picking up debris because of their softer surface.
Screen protectors are deliberately made of soft material, and are therefore more vulnerable to scratching than a hardened glass screen. Some screen protectors are softer than others, and will scratch more easily.
May 06, 2012 09:56
Marble Shark
I'd like to give my 2 cents to this as I've had the same problem. I am a professional mobile developer and, while the idea of a disc-based capacitive stylus is inventive (and works fairly well, when it works), the whole concept is seriously floored. I own a jot pro and an ipad 2 - I keep the screen very clean (and have a gumdrop case with plastic shield protector), however, no matter /how/ clean you keep your screen the Jot Pro *will* scratch it - even the slightest morsel of debris will get between the disc and the screen protector (and yes, it matters if you scratch your protector too, especially if you have to replace it once a month). Also, if you write at even slightly the wrong angle (as I naturally do) the disc will not make flat contact with the screen - both of these worries are eliminated with a standard slim rubber-tipped capacitive sylus which, in fairness, gives almost exactly the same results without the problems associated with the Jot stylus. Good idea, poor execution (but not sure how it could be executed well in the first place). It's easy for Adonit to blame 'environmental debris', but this does not, and will not ever solve the fundamental problem that this this stylus is simply not practical, especially for its intended purpose which is spure of the moment note taking - if you work and live in a clean room (i.e. like those they build chips in at Intel), you're ok - anything else though, forget it. I've replaced 2 screen protectors already in only 3 weeks of VERY careful use!
May 06, 2012 04:17
Jon
Adonit
Dear Chad, we are able to have confidence in the knowledge that our stylus is not scratching screens, not only because of the extensive testing we have carried out, but also because of the independent tests which have been carried out on Jot discs which customers thought had scratched their screen. In every case it was clear, under magnification, that the plastic disc of the Jot was scratched. This does not happen if the plastic disc is scratching the glass screen; it happens when foreign particles between the Jot disc and the screen are scratching both the disc and the screen.
We never dismiss scratch claims by saying a screen 'will scratch eventually anyway'. What I have pointed out is that if you do not use a screen protector, then you have decided to accept the increased risk of your screen being scratched, and a screen without a protector is going to be scratched eventually, even if you never use any stylus on it at all.
Hamid, our Jot's plastic disc has been tested extensively, and we have sold tens of thousands of Jots. The fact that we still have only a tiny number of people contacting us about scratch claims, is further evidence that the Jot's plastic disc is not scratching the Gorilla Glass of people's screens.
As Sakda has observed correctly, the screen's static electricity will attract particles, some of which you cannot even see, and which are so small they can remain on the screen even after you wipe it with a cloth. People who want to protect their screen will use a screen protector.
April 20, 2012 16:19
Hamid Baghi
I have the same problem. I am really frustrated. After using the stylus for a while my iPad screen is now full of scratches. I don't think I could get as much scratches if I rubbed it in sand. It is a brand new iPad and I just paid $30 to ruin it. I think the idea behind jot is great but it should have been tested before. I hope you have a solution for this. We should definitely warn people not to buy this if they care about a scratch free screen.
April 19, 2012 14:31
Sakda Jitpreedasakul
I think the cause of scratch screen come from static charge when use stylus long time enough and electric charge may build up and collect some particle nearby to it. So If possible environment shoud be clean from dust. So next time if I've got this Jot again then I absolutely install protective film.
April 16, 2012 17:30
J M
I also just noticed distinct scratches on my iPad (third generation) that I am certain (without a doubt) is from the Adonit Jot Pro. The scratches are writing, and this Jot is the only stylus I have used on my new iPad.
I understand the explanation that it is not the stylus itself, but something caught between the disk and the screen; however, this is no consolation to users who believe they are keeping things clean, only to discover the scratches on their $600 devices. It is still a design problem and frustrating.
I've also read in multiple places that the screen protector greatly affects the stylus' performance and read that they are unnecessary. Well. Lesson learned.
April 16, 2012 05:31
Chad Latta
I meant to say Jot, not "not"! Also, the fact that a screen "will scratch eventually anyway" is not really an excuse for a faulty product.
April 12, 2012 12:48
Chad Latta
I just have to add, I received my not recently and after cleaning my screen and the Jot itself, I still managed to leave a fairly noticeable scratch in my screen. I understand a dirty screen can cause this, but for it to happen so quickly and right after cleaning the screen makes me really suspicious. I literally saw it happen, and now I have first "test letters" forever etched into my screen.
I am returning my Jot. I just got my new iPad and really debated whether or not to try the jot based on reports of scratching. I learned my lesson. For you to dismiss claims of scratching and simply say its a dirty screen is really frustrating. I have never seen another stylus scratch the scren as easily as the Jot.
Please stop blaming the "dirty screen" and take another look at your product.
Thanks.
April 12, 2012 12:45
Jon
Adonit
Nico and Nick, as we have already explained, it is not our product that is scratching screens; it is environmental debris. You can see this for yourself by looking at the underside of a Jot disc under high magnification. Scratches on the bottom of the disc indicate that particles between the screen and disc have scratched both screen and disc. I have provided an example in this thread.
Like other stylus manufacturers, we have a notice on our website advising that if customers are not going to use a screen protector on their device, they need to keep their screen clean.
However, any glass screen which is not using a screen protector is going to be scratched eventually, regardless of the kind of stylus used, or even if only a fingertip is used. That is the risk you choose to accept when you decide not to use a screen protector.
I experienced this myself with my own smartphone, which was scratched within four hours of purchase, despite the fact hat I had never used anything on it other than my fingertip. Subsequently, I bought a screen protector.
April 11, 2012 13:29
Nico Gasparini
@Nick: They give you replacement discs or a complete refund of your paid stylus (as long as you bought the jot on their website and not anywhere else.. I have the bad luck that I didn't buy it through their website.. So i won't get a refund).
Of course this refund is NOTHING when this thing scratches your screen on a $500+ device like you said. Epic Fail I would say. I'm so angry...
April 11, 2012 11:12
Nick Gagas
Add me to the ranks of disappointed customers. I love the design of the stylus but the fact that it scratched my brand new iPad has me seething. I constantly wiped my screen and the disc with a microfiber cloth to avoid this but my efforts were futile. How does Adonit compensate its customers when one of their products damages a $500+ piece of hardware?
April 11, 2012 01:54
Nico Gasparini
Unfortunately it happened to me as well. I even knew about being VERY careful with the little dirt/dust problem between the disk and iPad, checked my iPad and my Jot everytime before using and then it happend anway... while chilling on my couch.. writing.. then.. *SCRATCH*.
This is the new iPad, i own it for two weeks now, and I cannot be satisfied with a scratched screen on a brand-new tablet. By the way, I've bought the Jot Pro stylus last week and only used it a couple of times since then and it already messed up. A few days ago I've even mailed your support with praise how cool this stylus was. That's pretty frustating and sad. I don't know what to do now. I've contacted your support and a staff member who is called "Dee" is assigned to my problem. Hopefully we find a proper solution...
Best Regards, Nico
April 05, 2012 05:25
Jon
Adonit
You're welcome William. In Levi's case, as in other cases, it was determined that debris between the stylus disc surface and the screen, was responsible for the scratching; we replaced his scratched disc with two free replacements. We have had no cases of the metal projecting through the disc and scratching the screen. Even when the disc has delaminated completely, we have had no reports of the metal scratching the screen.
April 02, 2012 11:55
William Robison
What about the various posts in this thread? It appears Bob had screen damage, and there was obviously something that happened to Levi's screen and you offered some resolution. The images you provided (thank you) show scratches on the stylus itself, which would not bother me, and I assume don't effect performance, but there seem to be several users here with scratched screens... The metal I can see in your images - is that completely contained within the plastic, or does it come through to the bottom of the stylus? Just curious. Again, I appreciate the dialog - most companies would not be so eager to engage current and (potentially) future users.
April 02, 2012 11:47
Jon
Adonit
Dear William,
To date we have never had any confirmed reports of our Jot scratching a screen or screen protector. A sharp piece of sand or grit pressed firmly between the Jot disc and your screen will probably scratch it, which is why we always recommend the use of a screen protector, as do other stylus manufacturers.
Under high powered magnification, it's possible to detect scratches on the underside of a disc's surface which show that hard particles between the device and the disc have scratched both the disc's surface and the device's screen protector. I have attached a couple of examples. These scratches are invisible to the unaided eye, and show you how easy it is for literally microscopic particles to adhere to the soft underside of the disc's surface and scratch it.
April 02, 2012 10:45
William Robison
Oops - reread the threads and realized I mixed up the names. Jon - can you fill us all in on what caused your product to scratch these various screens, and what can be done to prevent it? Levi, how was this resolved to your satisfaction? Kevin, has your issue been resolved? I don't really want to have to use a screen protector - they are generally not needed, esp. when I keep my ipad in a case, but I can't risk scratching the glass.
This really seems like the stylus product I have been looking for, but simply put, a scratched screen is not an acceptable risk.
April 02, 2012 03:56
Kevin Dalgaard
You can add me to the list of people who got their screen scratched by the Jot Pro stylus. I now have a 14mm long scratch. Fortunately, I read this thread before I started to use the stylus, so I mounted a screen protector to avoid permanently damaging my retina display. Thank God, I did that.
Now I can just change the screen protector, but that really makes me concerned if I dare to use this stylus anymore.
I love the stylus in all other aspects, but this is for sure a deal-breaker! Can it really be true that one has to be worried about getting his screen scratched?
March 31, 2012 17:48
William Robison
So I see that at least two people have had this issue, but I don't see any discussion of what caused it, or how to prevent it. And how was this resolved to your satisfaction, Jon? Did they replace your screen? Nothing short of that solution would be acceptable to me if this product scratched my iPad. How about you, Bob - did they solve your issue for you?
March 30, 2012 23:25
Levi Ham
Jon, yes I'm more than satisified with out resolution! I posted my comment to this post shortly after the incidident and before you and I had spoken. You and your team went well above and beyond in making a not so great situation seem a lot better! Despite what happened I am still a firm believer in Adonit's products and will continue to be a life-long customer. Seeing first-hand the way Adonit treats it's customers has shown me that any problem can be worked through and you will all bend over backwards to make sure the customer doesn't feel poorly about their experience. You just can't buy that kind of service! Thanks again Jon!
March 13, 2012 21:11
Jon
Adonit
Levi, thanks again for the correspondence we had. I'm so glad we were able to reach a satisfying resolution for you. :)
March 13, 2012 12:34
Levi Ham
This same thing happened to me and I'm shocked. I'm a clean freak when it comes to both of my iPhones and my iPad 2. While moving the stylus across the screen all of a sudden I felt a little friction. I looked down and there was fairly large scratch about an inch long. I just submitted a request for a rep to contact me and I hope that they do. I just don't see how this happened -- because it happened at no fault of my own.
Comments latest first
I do not see any other stylus in the market that is as precise and well to work as the adonit when it comes to drawing and painting. Adonit takes the cake. The problem I have is the adonit definitely scratches my screen protectors, and I even bought the scratch resistant, crystal clear, 1 per $17 screen ones and I still get scratches. I thoroughly clean my screen and my stylus disc, not just that but I have a spare disc and it is causing the same issues... Seems adonit will scratch my protectors no mater what. I suppose the only thing I can do is replace my protectors once every 3 months or so. Im sad, because I see drawing tablets use similar stylus' and their users dont seem to be complaining.
I would love to buy the pressure adonit stylus, but $99 for a tool that scratches the hell out of my protectors seems like I am just condoning this destruction and I cant do it.
I think it is pretty clear that the disk itself won't scratch the glass, but I suspect that it will 'scratch' the oleophobic layer on top of the glass (the fingerprint reduction coating). Throughout this discussion, I haven't seen it brought up, and I think it may be getting lumped in with scratching the glass.
After a bit of use, when I turned my ipad off, and the light hit it just right, you could read entire words perfectly. You couldn't feel any physical scratches, and you couldn't see anything wrong when the screen was turned on, but it was a bit disconcerting. Even if I hadn't been able to find an acceptable screen protector, I would have continued to use my jot because I consider it *way* more useful and valuable than the oleophobic layer.
Thanks God I've read it before start actually using this thing. Instead I've tried JotPro on my iPhone4 which has little scratches already. The result is impressive. Every, I should write it bold, every small speck of dust, even invisible, under the disk will definelty scratch your screen. And when there is absolutely no any dust on the disk and on the screen, it's true that the disk itself isn't scratch the iPad or iPhone glass.
So using the screen protector is a MUST if you're using Jot Pro. Just because you can not even see if there any dirt on the disk or not. Invisible hard dust will scratch and it will be better if it scratch protection film rather the expensive glass.
Sad but true, just for me 30$ pen is absolutely useless and probably will go to the wardobe box.
Thanks, I have appreciated your comments.
Hi Jon.
Saw the post about the updated language and wanted to say that it looks much clearer that way.
As stated previously, I appreciate your taking the time to listen to our concerns on wording.
Please note the following advisory which has been placed on all our Jot product pages.
"However, as is generally known, when any object, such as a stylus or your finger, contacts and moves on an unprotected screen, scratches may happen due to the particles between the screen and the object. Therefore, a screen protector is recommended to be used to maintain the condition of the screen. If there is wear to the screen protector, it is recommended to replace it with a new one. In any case, it is advised to keep your screen clean of dust and particles. For further instructions regarding protecting your screen, please contact the manufacturer of your appliance for assistance."
Will do Jon, Thanks
Dapcmaniac, no need for photos we'll take your word for it. Please contact help@adonit.net. Thanks again Christopher.
Yes there is a serious gap in customer epectations; Apple and Corning have created the image of unscratchable glass, which is a contradiction in terms, unrelated to reality. The fact is that you were best protected when you had a screen protector on your device. Your windows are very likey scratched, but the scratches aren't as obviously visible to you (and cleaning with water and a sponge helps them avoid scratching). No one expects you to know the science behind how your screen works or how it attracts dust particles through static electricity. All you need to know is that your device has a glass screen, that glass can be scratched, and that using a screen protector is the best way to maintain original screen condition. As I have stated previously, we are currently working on the wording on our site in order to provide customers with a stronger advisory. Chriitopher, thanks for your post..
Interesting insights from the lawyer, Jon, and Chris.
I have to be honest, if Jon and Chris are in the right, we have a serious gap on consumer expectations. A major major glass. Somewhere in Chris' post about static electricity and plastic via other stuff and types of glass and etc, I definitely went cross-eyed
Its a bloody stylus. I can't tell you how little time i put into research (beyond what was on the product page) for a 30 dollar item when it was already reccomended to me. Again. Its fine this is an outcome of the product, but to for me to know the physics on static charge's and stylus materials and the effect that has on screen scratches (drastically raising their frequency) is an absurd assumption. I still cant figure out why this screen scratches, but my windows (on my apartment or car) never seem to scratch despite my constantly cleaning them, people getting their hands on them, constantly opening/closing, etc.
Again I am not a tech guy. Just a guy who was recommended a product. Maybe I dont fit your customer base?
I have not forgotten to talk directly to support in e-mail. Gotten a little lazy after so many bad picture attempts. Hoping to get to it for memorial day (if work will let me breathe for a moment!)
Back from my trip.
I tried taking some photos but its hard to get the screen to show the scratches without the pictures getting a glare. Anyone have any tips?
Mike, let me address a few points.
* " It is important to note, Jon does make several valid points regarding product liability, but not once does he address the issue with evidence."
I have addressed the issue with evidence. I have posted photographic evidence in this thread. Additionally, we invite customers with scratch issues to have their disc and screen examined by a third party of their own choice, so that they can obtain evidence themselves.
* "Jon's argument is quite simple: At a molecular level, basic laws of science prove that we are surrounded with an inescapable cloud matter. Because the matter is so infinitesimally small, liability cannot be directly attributable to Jot."
No that is not my argument. My argument is that when scratches appear on both the screen and the surface of the disc, those scratches were clearly made not by the disc but by particles in between the disc and the screen.
* "Finally, Jon completely misstates the law, but an excellent use of misleading rhetoric tries to hide his ignorance."
Actually I have not stated nor made any reference to law.
* "Next, Jon argues that because the company has not received nor confirms any reports of disc protrusions causing the actual damage, then they don't exist."
I have never said that.
* "we use an independent test. This meaning an objective and neutral outsider did the tests. I’m sure this is true, but Jot select the items tested, not the independent tester. "
I did not say this. I pointed out that customers have had their discs and screens tested independently by a third party; we did not select the tester, we did not select the items tested, we did not select the results.
I have no objection to you posting your opinion, but I will ask you to quote me accurately.
Additionally, you appear to have represented Apple as claiming that their iPad screens are completely unscratchable. I do not believe Apple has ever made such a claim; on the contrary, I believe they are very careful about the claims made for their screen. I do not believe we have said anything which contradicts what Apple has said about its own screens.
After experimenting with nearly every styli created and the tragic loss of my real stylus - iFarady, I thought the Jot Pro deserved another look. I will not do so after reading this thread. I'm appalled by representative Jon's (Jon) carefully worded responses. However, I have no stake the outcome, well, other than entertainment.
I’m a lawyer, and Jon is not only taking your money but also calling you an idiot for mistakenly attributing liability. Hopefully, someone will take my discussion further and seek counsel. This is a viable claim. It is important to note, Jon does make several valid points regarding product liability, but not once does he address the issue with evidence. You're not asking the right questions. Let me explain.
Procedurally, a couple of you should hire a lawyer with a history of successful class certifications (class action claims). Companies factor litigation cost into fiduciary obligation. Simple delays and placation will eliminate half of the claimants because it’s not worth the time and cost to litigate. While courts are reluctant to certify class suits, this might be the right one. First, the controversy raises an interesting legal question that will reoccur without resolution, so the Court will likely hear the case. Next, it set precedence for something that will replace computers, shortly.
The short version, because I don’t have a stake in the outcome, I’m an independent tester. Seek a products liability firm with a solid reputation for class action certification. The issue is valid (ripe), it’s individualized and concrete harm for which a remedy is available.
Jon's argument is quite simple: At a molecular level, basic laws of science prove that we are surrounded with an inescapable cloud matter. Because the matter is so infinitesimally small, liability cannot be directly attributable to Jot. Without certainty, how can a court justify damages? It requires solid reasoning.
Interestingly, the argument is sound and somewhat rock solid, to the layperson. Can anyone prove that Jot is 100% liable? Unlikely, contributory negligence weights heavily on redressability. Without a definitive remedy, a court will dismiss for lack of standing. Justiciability is too complex to discuss, but it is sufficient justification for a motion to dismiss on summary judgment.
The counter argument is too simple that I fear I'm missing something. However, I doubt it. An analogy might be illustrative: Mike is pointing a gun at Jon's head, but Jon told Mike that the gun was unloaded. Sally, drunk, staggers by and bumps Mike causing the gun to fire, and unbeknownst to either of them, Sally loaded the gun earlier. Jon dies from a head wound. Because the shot was a head shot, it exited Jon’s head and ricocheted off the tree, striking and mortally wounding the drunken Sally. Who is liable?
Tough decision ... the more variable added to the hypothetical the more elusive a "right" answer becomes. Below, I discuss how Jon uses ambiguous complexities to change the question in his favor with a strong variable: infinity.
After summary Judgment, the claimant will present the facts. Team Jon will attempt to refute each one of them with complexity. For example, if I say the sky is blue; he'll ask where, Seattle? Alternatively, he might use “junk science” to ask, “how can we know with certainty that the sky is blue? Because microscopic particulate matter refracts sunlight, the sky appears blue but this is not factually correct.” What do you think? Knowing this is true, is the sky blue?
After our claim is made, team Jon is likely to invoke the long standing principles of contract law. However, this will likely fail because of the inherent inequities in bargaining power, between a consumer and a behemoth company, Jot cannot be ignored. Often, this is called contract adhesion. Generally, adhesion contracts are standard form contracts and or warranties that are drafted by one party (usually a business with stronger bargaining power) and signed by the weaker party (usually a consumer in need of goods or services), who must adhere to the contract and therefore does not have the power to negotiate or modify the terms of the contract. This argument will prevail. For a contract to be valid, consideration (bargaining) must be possible.
Now the fun part, lets parse the language employed by Jon and determine what it is he's saying or not saying. This is why most of you are frustrated. He'll continue to do it until you give up. Do not do this. Hire someone like Jon that knows what Jon is doing. Hire a lawyer.
According to Jon, "it's possible to detect scratches on the … [Jot's] disc's surface ... [but] invisible to the unaided eye, [but] … microscopic particles [do] adhere to the soft underside of the disc's surface and scratch it."
The entirety of the issue turn on this statement. Admission of possibility in first clause is key, but Jon tries to qualify or limit the assertion with an unsupported assumption. Oops! However, since the company recommends a screen protector, as Jon professes, the consumer is perpetually at “risk of an inevitable scratch,” and therefore, Jon is not liable. Recall contract adhesion? It must be clearly stated and not a mere recommendation buried in the product's website. Moreover, note the use of inevitable: how long? If he’s referring to an unidentifiable time-frame, it’s considered forever. So yea, definitionally, he’s correct. Finally, Jon completely misstates the law, but an excellent use of misleading rhetoric tries to hide his ignorance. Note his lack of qualifying language, nothing he has written forces him into a position.
Next, Jon argues that because the company has not received nor confirms any reports of disc protrusions causing the actual damage, then they don't exist. This is art of argument 101. It's called cum hoc ergo propter hoc meaning that a correlation of occurrences is not sufficient evidence to establish causation. Refuting this is difficult because it never ends, 999 occurrences out of 1,000 proves nothing. Numerous variable not factored into the analysis might be attributable to the cause, if not partially contributory. Tough argument to make when a significant amount of factual evidence allow plausible inferences.
Jon's entire argument is summarized thusly: "it is not our product that is scratching screens; it is environmental debris." Love it. Think about what his saying. First he set up the pictures and planted the seed that they do acknowledge possible liability, allowing for sympathy. Before you know it, his statement flips the script to supports his "alternative causation" theory.
The introduction of microscopic environmental matter is significant because it is eludes qualification; it’s infinite. Infinity has no beginning nor end. Without those two components, logical reasoning cannot support inferential liability.
In law, we use the colloquial principle: "laugh test." If you cannot postulate an assertion without someone laughing, it shall never be used. A few examples of where Jon forgot this principle: "Like other stylus manufacturers, … our website advising that if customers are not going to use a screen protector on their device, they need to keep their screen clean."
Really? Seriously? He's using "other manufactures" to support his argument. Note the lack of support with “other” makers. Does he mean Most, some, none, or all? Knowing this changes everything. Exemplary use of ambiguity under the guise of evidence.
Another example where the laugh test should have been used, "any glass screen which is not using a screen protector is going to be scratched eventually, regardless of the kind of stylus used, or even if only a fingertip is used. That is the risk you choose to accept when you decide not to use a screen protector." I love this one. So Apple, the manufacturing company that supports a parasitic company like Jot, is wrong? Is Jon explicitly saying: forget what apple recommends, we know better. Of course, Jot has done "extensive testing." Again, the phrase is not defined, thus it’s both ambiguous and infinite.
Finally, to prove that Jon is right, he offers you his own personal tragedy, "I experienced this myself with my own smartphone, which was scratched within four hours of purchase, despite the fact hat I had never used anything on it other than my fingertip." Is he trying to garner sympathy or prove an assertion without evidence? Both. Again, art of argument 101, identify with you adversary, illicit sympathy. Jon learned his lesson: always heed the conventional wisdom of others over a multibillion dollar company like Apple because clearly - Jot’s testing exceeds that of Apple’s testing. Yea, right. I’d love to read something about Apple asserting that a finger will eventually result in scratched glass. This is poorly written and very transparent. Look on the bright side, he's not calling you idiots, this time. He's showing that someone with extensive knowledge like himself makes mistakes.
While it's been fun, I'm losing interest after the paragraph above. For a minute, I thought Jon might be the company lawyers since most responses are well written, dismissive yet ambiguous. Fast forward to the end, if you’re sick of reading.
A few important quotes that need little explanation:
"we are able to have confidence in the knowledge that our stylus is not scratching screens, not only because of the extensive testing we have carried out, but also because of the independent tests which have been carried out on Jot discs which customers thought had scratched their screen. In every case it was clear, under magnification, that the plastic disc of the Jot was scratched."
According to Jon, you're wrong about the source of scratches because:
(1) extensive testing proves otherwise. Another ambiguous and unsupported assertion both definitional and substantively. What qualifies as extensive? These are vital questions that have meaning to the layperson, but legally, without context, they are meaningless. e.g. after 5,000 complaints Jot cherry pick 5 styli and test three of them. Problem? Yup, under plain meaning rule this qualifies as extensive testing. Of those selected for testing, they test more than half of the lot, and the results prove Jot was not the definitive cause. Are you buying this story? I hope not.
(2) we use an independent test. This meaning an objective and neutral outsider did the tests. I’m sure this is true, but Jot select the items tested, not the independent tester. Apply the above rule and shown your results.
Nothing Jon has written is direct evidence over the issue of whether Jot is liable or the magic dust is the cause. Until irrefutable evidence is provided, he’s working you until you get tired of it. Textbook. $250 is an odd number. It’s large but not too large that consumers are guaranteed to litigate, and small enough that at some point, your time becomes more valuable than the effort. Almost seems like a calculated risk, does it not?
Here a good example of recharacterizing the question ask many have asked:
"We never dismiss scratch claims by saying a screen 'will scratch eventually anyway'. What I have pointed out is that if you do not use a screen protector, then you have decided to accept the increased risk of your screen being scratched, and a screen without a protector is going to be scratched eventually, even if you never use any stylus on it at all."
Because he did not use qualifying language earlier, he’s right. However, the plain meaning rule says otherwise.
Here, Hamid is being overtly insulted
"Hamid, our Jot's plastic disc has been tested extensively, and we have sold tens of thousands of Jots. The fact that we still have only a tiny number of people contacting us about scratch claims, is further evidence that the Jot's plastic disc is not scratching the Gorilla Glass of people's screens."
Forget defining tiny, tell us what number would justify an inquiry? The exact number. 50%? 80%? No amount would make a company question the lifeblood of its existence - until the litigation floodgate forced the company to act.
By now, you should be able to anticipate Jon’s responses before he does. Try playing chess without prior experience, you lost before it began, he took your power,
Never ask questions that you don’t know, at least tangentially, what the potential answers might be. Force you opponent into a definitive position, then exploit it by using: ambiguity, infinity, and recharacterizing the issue in a manner favorable to your position. All champion chess players, know their next six moves, and your next six even though you don’t know what they are. Always anticipate and force your opponent into contrary positions. Applied here, ask short and pointed questions. Ask questions that require answers with qualifying words: how much, by whom, etc.
"I have made the point repeatedly that scratching is inevitable with any stylus, if a screen protector is not used. However, it is completely avoidable by using screen protector. Any screen will inevitably be scratched regardless of whether or not a stylus is used, if a screen protector is not used."
Notice that Jon’s repetition has obviated the need to prove the assertion? This is because omission is implicit acceptance. He built this argument before many of you had even scratched your iPad.
In closing, what ever you do. Don't give up. Don’t let Jon verbally annihilate you? Use what I’ve written as a guide, and do it politely. Identify the goal and focus on it. Name calling and rudeness will not get you closer to the goal, and quite possibly, it will become another obstacle. Jon does not care about you as a person, and anything you say will have little effect.
A one paragraph summary of the legal dispute: A paid B for C, but C damages D.
X is the cause of action - why you're in court. A is you; B is Adonit; D is your iPad.
X argues that B is liable for damages to D because but-for C no D would have occurred.
Remove Adonit, the equation fails. Establish but for causation for C (a proxy to B) You win.
B characterizes the question as: since A failed to heed B warning, B is not liable for A’s misuse of C. This is weak.
Alternatively, if the court finds C did cause D to A's property. B will argue that it is impossible to show that C is completely negligent for D to A.
That's it. At the very least, spread the word. Tell everyone. Public sentiment forces policy change. Jon responses to many of you are simply repugnant. I write someone else in the company because this affects sales, which have an impact on adonits existence. Don't be intimidated or bullied, Jon lacks real skills. If this is all they have to offer, this case is a winner every time, in every jurisdiction.
Good luck… I have screen shots, just in case this is removed. My post will be remove quicker than the time it took me to write. Hope it helps someone.
You're welcome. I don't think we disagree on consumer expectations, what we have is a different idea of how soon scratching can happen without a screen protector. I am aware that it can happen at any time, either after a long time (if you're lucky), or almost immediately (if you're unlucky).
I managed to scratch the screen of one of my devices on the same day I bought it (though not with a stylus; I was using my fingers), and bought a screen protector as a result. I am not going to remove the screen protector, because it will expose my device to precisely the dangers I aimed to avoid by applying the protector in the first place.
I don't expect a screen to be scratched after a long time without a screen protector, I fully expect it to happen very promptly, if only on the basis of my own experience. I also expect scratching to be inevitable regardless of how clean someone tries to keep their unprotected screen.
We have been discussing a change to the wording on our site, and aim to have a stronger recommendation for screen protector use up soon.
Thank you Jon.
I think we have a disagreement on consumer expectations on product usage. I expect scratches over the lifetime use of my product. I do not expect them to occur so quickly through the use of a specific product.
My irk is that this could have been avoided by saying: Warning, use of this product without a screen protector will result in noticeable scratches on the screen.
I would have been warned and kept mine on, the company would have satisfactorily stated a known concern on its product, everyone is happy.
I thank you for volunteering to look at the photos. I am traveling for a few days and will contact the help e-mail upon my return (can't load photos onto work computer). I'm not the best with a camera and my attempts to take a picture where one can clearly see the scratches have been a little troublesome.
My thanks again.
By the way, as I have already mentioned, please contact us on help@adonit.net. We're entirely willing to review photos of the scratches on your screen and have you explain to us how they happened.
I understand what you say, and I fully appreciate your position. Of course you want a device you can simply purchase and use, without having to concern yourself with technical details or chase information about risk minimization. I can completely agree with that point of view; it's entirely natural for anyone purchasing a consumer IT product.
We don't consider it an unrealistic expectation that people using a glass product will understand it will become scratched eventually if a screen protector is not used, even if a stylus is never used. We also consider it reasonable to expect people to realise that applying a screen protector reduces that risk, and going without a screen protector (or removing one), increases that risk.
However, we do understand that Corning's marketing of their Gorilla Glass can be misleadingly enthusiastic, and though we don't believe we are liable when their product fails to meet their customer's expectations, we are currently discussing a rewording of the text on our website so that it contains a stronger recommendation for improved care practices.
Hello Jon
I appreciate your willingness to allow me to state my case.
Would it help if i submitted a picture trying to capture the scratches just being caught on the border as well as the name of the app that I use for notes (so you can see why its just that edge?). I have to be honest though I get the feeling the response will be along the lines of 'it could have been caused by another device/natural use/etc.'
I have read your comments here and frankly its frustrating.
I am not a tech savy person (outside of the 'ohh cool!' or 'shiny!' factor.) I wanted a stylus. i frankly still dont understand why those old styluses from PDAs wont work. I don't really know what 'gorilla glass' is outside of the fact my ipad has it and it sounds strong. I bought a cheap soft tip stylus because I didnt realize how hard it would be to write with. Amount of research? None. I just wanted a stylus and they sell for like 10 dollars.
I was told the Jot was a fantastic stylus. On a recommendation I checked it out and bought the product. I saw nothing on the amazon product page or this product page that stated scratching of the screen could occur with regular stylus use. Just a warning to keep your screen clean, which to me is something I'd do anyway (i hate smears/dust on my iphone).
Why was there an assumption that I would just know these things? I just wanted a stylus to write with. How much background research was I going to do on a 30 dollar purchase? Do I expect scratches on my screen after i took my protector off? Absolutely, but so many within a short time period of owning both the ipad and the stylus?
I felt mislead. I went from being really happy to being kinda peeved. Like I said, I had a screen protector but took it off because of the grainy look ruining the ipad experience. Had I been aware at the purchase of the product that I was risking scratches so quickly, I would have dealt with the grain.
Thank you for the time to read my concerns and respond to my post. I find the defense of your product to be quite admirable, and as i said, I did enjoy using the product.
I will see if I can get a clear picture taken with my cameraphone or something if that is helpful.
"But it's STILL an impossible-to-completely-avoid problem with your product."
I have made the point repeatedly that scratching is inevitable with any stylus, if a screen protector is not used. However, it is completely avoidable by using screen protector. Any screen will inevitably be scratched regardless of whether or not a stylus is used, if a screen protector is not used.
The presence of grit or dirt between the stylus tip and the screen is not a design flaw; there is no way to prevent an object coming between the stylus tip and the screen.
"I don't remember a screen protector anywhere in all of my research on this product;"
Our website informs customers that if they choose not to use a screen protector they need to keep their screen clean. We also provide a list of screen protectors which work well with our product, as well as a list of protectors which don't work well.
I'm sorry you don't think we're being real about this issue, and that our responses are childish. On our forums I have answered directly all questions about the potential of scratching, with answers such as these:
* "Using any stylus can scratch your screen protector or screen, if dust or grit particles become trapped between the stylus tip and the screen. This is why stylus manufacturers recommend the use of screen protectors." (Jon Burke, March 22, 2012 08:46)
If you think that's a childish answer, or an answer which avoids the issue, please let me know how I can improve it. I will forward your concerns and suggestions to our marketing team.
I am so frustrated from reading the responses to user complaints on this page -- Adonit / Jon, you are completely missing the point. Everyone understands that it's a piece of dirt between the disc and the screen! We get that! Yeah, it's not your plastic disc itself. But it's STILL an impossible-to-completely-avoid problem with your product. You may not be able to pay for our iPad screens, but what you can do, is admit that this is still a design flaw, say that you're working on it, and in the meantime, heavily advise your buyers to use a screen protector. I understand the issues of admitting fault for liability reasons, but look at how much Apple has gotten away with regardless of its many lawsuits. It's so not a big deal to have to use a screen protector if you can find the right one. I don't remember a screen protector anywhere in all of my research on this product; I even remember someone saying it didn't work well with a protector on a review (I found different results: it worked fine!).
But, what is appalling here is the ridiculous refusal to get real. Two of my friends have already said that they really like the Jot Pro they have borrowed from me to test: I don't tell them not to buy it because I know now revile the thought of it thanks to the scratches and this forum, but I tell them if they like it to simply get a screen protector. They have absolutely no qualms about that.
Sure, I'm pissed that my screen is scratched, but do I really expect you to pay for it or to replace it? No. Just warn your future customers and warn them well. People are out there thinking that Gorilla glass is indestructible thanks to some irresponsible articles/blog posts. It behooves your marketing and your risk management team to (1) tell them how wonderful your product is for all the reasons you love it, and then (2) tell them it comes with a small caveat that perhaps all users should respect, anyway. Perhaps sell it in a package with a screen protector, recommend one that works well with it, or even work with another company to give a coupon deal or something.
The responses here to those of us who are wanting some kind of apology or acknowledgement is just really childish. Makes me wonder if the Levi post was planted: I don't think I see any other happy camper on this page who feels resolved.
If you have any evidence that your device's glass screen was scratched by the Jot's plastic disc, we're completely willing to have you make your case to us. Please contact help@adonit.net.
I feel a strong need to post my review from Amazon here (2 stars). It should give a good telling of the problem I experienced and I am hoping for resolution.
"I liked this stylus. I really did.
Initially I had a screen protector on my iPad, ready to go from the day I purchased it. I had to take it off because the protector was making the screen look very grainy and hard to read with (also negating the benefit of having a 'retina' screen).
About a week after, I noticed marks on it that strongly resembled words, specifically along the right border (an app I use reserves that area for magnified writing)
The marks ended up being scratches. I went to the Adonit site and looked on their forum, but it appears they are saying it's not their product, but a result of static and particles. To be honest it really still is their product doing the writing and forcing the marks. I didn't have scratches on my backup stylus that I leave in my travel bag (softer tip) for when I need to draw something out using the center screen real estate which remains scratch free, making me think it's the hard plastic on the Adonit stylus causing the issue (thus it IS their product).
The description did say to keep your screen clean from particles and dust, but I thought that was so the writing would be more seamless (I figured they meant a lot of particles on screen will collect on the disk and then stop the iPad from registering contact), NOT that it would actually damage my property. I do follow that advice as much as I can but it is not possible to always be 100% dust free.
Had I been warned that no screen protector would have meant scratches, I certainly would have thought twice about removing the protector and make my eyes deal with the grainy retina look.
In all fairness I have to contact Adonit directly to seek resolution, but right now I am quite unhappy. I take really good care of most of my electronics. Yet now my father who has a year old iPad has a mostly blemish free screen, while my iPad, which is just about a month old, looks like I've had it for years (at least along the right border).
It's sad because until I noticed that, I wanted to give this product 5 stars because it's the best writing stylus I have encountered. But what is the point if when it is working normally, a direct side effect is screen damage?"
As per my review, this is my reaching out for a fix...
We both agree it is not the disc scratching the screen, particles between the tip and the screen are responsible; I have explained this several times on this forum, so I'm not sure why you think I'm disagreeing with you. What you say about a cushioning effect is true of soft sponge rubber tips, but not hard rubber tips. But grit adheres to both of them far more easily than to a plastic disc, and the manufacturers of such styluses place warnings about dirt on their websites precisely because of the danger of scratching.
Plastic screen protectors are much softer than Corning's Gorilla Glass. This is verifiable. First you can check their relative hardness indexes; Gorilla Glass scores 9 on the Mohr hardness scale, steel is between 4 and 5, and a screen protector scores much lower again. Secondly, you can try running a razor blade over a Gorilla Glass screen and a screen protector, and see which one scratches. A screen protector can be scratched with a fingernail, glass cannot.
Apologies, forgot to add - for the comment about screen protectors being softer and more likely to scratch, that's completely wrong - they'll just scratch slightly worse than glass. Regardless, a scratch is a scratch.. up the the consumer at the end of the day what is or isn't acceptable - I'd recommend sticking with rubber-tipped styluses until Adonit address this serious problem.
Appreciate you are trying to defend your product, however having owned 4 high-end capacitive styluses, I can say with 100% certainty the Adonit is *much* more likely to scratch the screen than any of the others. The reasons are obvious, the very soft rubber tip of a capacitive stylus provides a pillow for any debris that might get in between the screen and stylus, making it far less likely to scratch (or if it did, the scratch a lot less serious) - the jot products have a solid disc, this is asking for trouble which is why until now other manufacturers have steered clear of such an exectution. Posting all the pictures in the world of the stylus tip on this page makes no difference, it is not the 'disc'' scratching the screen that is in question. It is of some surprise this requires explaining to someone who works for a Stylus company but I'm sure others will most certainly agree, it is not my word against yours, it's elementary physics. I had to sell my Jot, it's useless until this problem is solved and I'd urge others to avoid it until the design flaw is addressed. Again, just my 2 cents - if others want to give it a go and risk constant screen / protector replacement costs that's their privaledge!
Every capacitive touch stylus faces exactly the same issue with debris, which is why you will see the same advice as we give, on the websites of other stylus companies. The rubber tipped styli are particularly bad at picking up debris because of their softer surface.
Screen protectors are deliberately made of soft material, and are therefore more vulnerable to scratching than a hardened glass screen. Some screen protectors are softer than others, and will scratch more easily.
I'd like to give my 2 cents to this as I've had the same problem. I am a professional mobile developer and, while the idea of a disc-based capacitive stylus is inventive (and works fairly well, when it works), the whole concept is seriously floored. I own a jot pro and an ipad 2 - I keep the screen very clean (and have a gumdrop case with plastic shield protector), however, no matter /how/ clean you keep your screen the Jot Pro *will* scratch it - even the slightest morsel of debris will get between the disc and the screen protector (and yes, it matters if you scratch your protector too, especially if you have to replace it once a month). Also, if you write at even slightly the wrong angle (as I naturally do) the disc will not make flat contact with the screen - both of these worries are eliminated with a standard slim rubber-tipped capacitive sylus which, in fairness, gives almost exactly the same results without the problems associated with the Jot stylus. Good idea, poor execution (but not sure how it could be executed well in the first place). It's easy for Adonit to blame 'environmental debris', but this does not, and will not ever solve the fundamental problem that this this stylus is simply not practical, especially for its intended purpose which is spure of the moment note taking - if you work and live in a clean room (i.e. like those they build chips in at Intel), you're ok - anything else though, forget it. I've replaced 2 screen protectors already in only 3 weeks of VERY careful use!
Dear Chad, we are able to have confidence in the knowledge that our stylus is not scratching screens, not only because of the extensive testing we have carried out, but also because of the independent tests which have been carried out on Jot discs which customers thought had scratched their screen. In every case it was clear, under magnification, that the plastic disc of the Jot was scratched. This does not happen if the plastic disc is scratching the glass screen; it happens when foreign particles between the Jot disc and the screen are scratching both the disc and the screen.
We never dismiss scratch claims by saying a screen 'will scratch eventually anyway'. What I have pointed out is that if you do not use a screen protector, then you have decided to accept the increased risk of your screen being scratched, and a screen without a protector is going to be scratched eventually, even if you never use any stylus on it at all.
Hamid, our Jot's plastic disc has been tested extensively, and we have sold tens of thousands of Jots. The fact that we still have only a tiny number of people contacting us about scratch claims, is further evidence that the Jot's plastic disc is not scratching the Gorilla Glass of people's screens.
As Sakda has observed correctly, the screen's static electricity will attract particles, some of which you cannot even see, and which are so small they can remain on the screen even after you wipe it with a cloth. People who want to protect their screen will use a screen protector.
I have the same problem. I am really frustrated. After using the stylus for a while my iPad screen is now full of scratches. I don't think I could get as much scratches if I rubbed it in sand. It is a brand new iPad and I just paid $30 to ruin it. I think the idea behind jot is great but it should have been tested before. I hope you have a solution for this. We should definitely warn people not to buy this if they care about a scratch free screen.
I think the cause of scratch screen come from static charge when use stylus long time enough and electric charge may build up and collect some particle nearby to it. So If possible environment shoud be clean from dust. So next time if I've got this Jot again then I absolutely install protective film.
Nico and Nick, as we have already explained, it is not our product that is scratching screens; it is environmental debris. You can see this for yourself by looking at the underside of a Jot disc under high magnification. Scratches on the bottom of the disc indicate that particles between the screen and disc have scratched both screen and disc. I have provided an example in this thread.
Like other stylus manufacturers, we have a notice on our website advising that if customers are not going to use a screen protector on their device, they need to keep their screen clean.
However, any glass screen which is not using a screen protector is going to be scratched eventually, regardless of the kind of stylus used, or even if only a fingertip is used. That is the risk you choose to accept when you decide not to use a screen protector.
I experienced this myself with my own smartphone, which was scratched within four hours of purchase, despite the fact hat I had never used anything on it other than my fingertip. Subsequently, I bought a screen protector.
@Nick: They give you replacement discs or a complete refund of your paid stylus (as long as you bought the jot on their website and not anywhere else.. I have the bad luck that I didn't buy it through their website.. So i won't get a refund).
Of course this refund is NOTHING when this thing scratches your screen on a $500+ device like you said. Epic Fail I would say. I'm so angry...
Add me to the ranks of disappointed customers. I love the design of the stylus but the fact that it scratched my brand new iPad has me seething. I constantly wiped my screen and the disc with a microfiber cloth to avoid this but my efforts were futile. How does Adonit compensate its customers when one of their products damages a $500+ piece of hardware?
Unfortunately it happened to me as well. I even knew about being VERY careful with the little dirt/dust problem between the disk and iPad, checked my iPad and my Jot everytime before using and then it happend anway... while chilling on my couch.. writing.. then.. *SCRATCH*.
This is the new iPad, i own it for two weeks now, and I cannot be satisfied with a scratched screen on a brand-new tablet.
By the way, I've bought the Jot Pro stylus last week and only used it a couple of times since then and it already messed up. A few days ago I've even mailed your support with praise how cool this stylus was. That's pretty frustating and sad. I don't know what to do now. I've contacted your support and a staff member who is called "Dee" is assigned to my problem. Hopefully we find a proper solution...
Best Regards,
Nico
You're welcome William. In Levi's case, as in other cases, it was determined that debris between the stylus disc surface and the screen, was responsible for the scratching; we replaced his scratched disc with two free replacements. We have had no cases of the metal projecting through the disc and scratching the screen. Even when the disc has delaminated completely, we have had no reports of the metal scratching the screen.
What about the various posts in this thread? It appears Bob had screen damage, and there was obviously something that happened to Levi's screen and you offered some resolution. The images you provided (thank you) show scratches on the stylus itself, which would not bother me, and I assume don't effect performance, but there seem to be several users here with scratched screens... The metal I can see in your images - is that completely contained within the plastic, or does it come through to the bottom of the stylus? Just curious. Again, I appreciate the dialog - most companies would not be so eager to engage current and (potentially) future users.
Dear William,
To date we have never had any confirmed reports of our Jot scratching a screen or screen protector. A sharp piece of sand or grit pressed firmly between the Jot disc and your screen will probably scratch it, which is why we always recommend the use of a screen protector, as do other stylus manufacturers.
Under high powered magnification, it's possible to detect scratches on the underside of a disc's surface which show that hard particles between the device and the disc have scratched both the disc's surface and the device's screen protector. I have attached a couple of examples. These scratches are invisible to the unaided eye, and show you how easy it is for literally microscopic particles to adhere to the soft underside of the disc's surface and scratch it.
Oops - reread the threads and realized I mixed up the names. Jon - can you fill us all in on what caused your product to scratch these various screens, and what can be done to prevent it? Levi, how was this resolved to your satisfaction? Kevin, has your issue been resolved? I don't really want to have to use a screen protector - they are generally not needed, esp. when I keep my ipad in a case, but I can't risk scratching the glass.
This really seems like the stylus product I have been looking for, but simply put, a scratched screen is not an acceptable risk.
You can add me to the list of people who got their screen scratched by the Jot Pro stylus. I now have a 14mm long scratch. Fortunately, I read this thread before I started to use the stylus, so I mounted a screen protector to avoid permanently damaging my retina display. Thank God, I did that.
Now I can just change the screen protector, but that really makes me concerned if I dare to use this stylus anymore.
I love the stylus in all other aspects, but this is for sure a deal-breaker! Can it really be true that one has to be worried about getting his screen scratched?
So I see that at least two people have had this issue, but I don't see any discussion of what caused it, or how to prevent it. And how was this resolved to your satisfaction, Jon? Did they replace your screen? Nothing short of that solution would be acceptable to me if this product scratched my iPad. How about you, Bob - did they solve your issue for you?
Jon, yes I'm more than satisified with out resolution! I posted my comment to this post shortly after the incidident and before you and I had spoken. You and your team went well above and beyond in making a not so great situation seem a lot better! Despite what happened I am still a firm believer in Adonit's products and will continue to be a life-long customer. Seeing first-hand the way Adonit treats it's customers has shown me that any problem can be worked through and you will all bend over backwards to make sure the customer doesn't feel poorly about their experience. You just can't buy that kind of service! Thanks again Jon!
Levi, thanks again for the correspondence we had. I'm so glad we were able to reach a satisfying resolution for you. :)
This same thing happened to me and I'm shocked. I'm a clean freak when it comes to both of my iPhones and my iPad 2. While moving the stylus across the screen all of a sudden I felt a little friction. I looked down and there was fairly large scratch about an inch long. I just submitted a request for a rep to contact me and I hope that they do. I just don't see how this happened -- because it happened at no fault of my own.